To offload the main front page news I created this page to list feedback from owners of L2 cache slot G3 CPU upgrades and PCI Video and Network cards. This page was created to deal specifically with the issue of PCI video and networking cards, not as a replacement for the more general reports (hundreds) contained in my Rate Your CPU Upgrade searchable database.
Note: on 10/10/2000 a reader sent a note that disabling the "ATI Extension" helped with problems he was having in a 6500 with Sonnet L2 G3 upgrade. The ATI extension is part of their retail card drivers. It only adds the ATI icon in the menu bar to allow selecting the ATI control panel from the right side of the menu bar.
Another reader sent word the tip on disabling the ATI Extension noted in the 10/10/2000 news solved his problems with an ATI graphics card in his Sonnet L2G3 upgraded Mac:
"
Mike-
Slaugtering goats and charming snakes didn't work, but disabling the
ATI extension did. go figure.
Have a 6500 with a Sonnet G3 L2 Cache upgrade and an ATI Nexus video
card. Had audio problems, random lockups, hangs, freezes...you name
it. After playing around a bit, the system seem MUCH more stable,
with absolutely NO audio problems (static or garbling of audio while
moving/opening/closing windows).
Finally!
Thanks,
Wes
"
For future reference, I've added this tip to the FAQ's CPU Upgrades and Video card sections as well
The reports below were just a small sample of those received after posting of several reader comments in Monday's (12/6/99) news (reader mails and entries from the database linked above). I've received too many mails to read (mixed in with hundreds of the usual daily emails for tech support and news) so this is far from a complete list of reader reports at this time. Hopefully it will help to illustrate what system hardware/software combinations are more or less prone to problems.
I welcome other feedback from L2 Cache Slot G3 Upgrade card owners - please list your Mac model, OS version, G3 card software version, PCI Cards installed (and driver revisions), etc. with your report. An Apple Systems Profiler report would be very useful since it includes all enabled extensions on your system.
Tip: A recent reader report indicated that the PCI Timing Update helped solve his problems with video cards in 603e Macs. The PCI Timing Update was originally made for Catalyst based Macs like the PowerCenter Pro. (ATI ships a similar patch on CD with their video cards).
If nothing else has worked and you don't want to disable 2D extensions, etc (another common tip for those with problems), give PCI Timing Update a try.
The most recent owner reports are listed first (in each brand category).
Newer Tech Owner Reports:
"Just wanted to drop a note to let you know that I'm running a Newer
Tech 300Mhz G3 L2 cache card on a PowerBase with a Voodoo3 2000 PCI
card and beta 7 drivers, with no problems at all. I know you've heard
from some Newer card owners already, but wanted to reinforce that
there aren't any problems so far.
Nate Hamilton
"
"Mike,
I'm running the Newer Tech G3/150/512k in my 6400 right now, and my Farallon
10/100 Commslot II ethernet card, Initio Miles U/W SCSI card and IX Micro
Game Rocket run fine. The only system crashes I'm having right now are OS 9
related, but I can't seem to get Quake 3 to run. This is probably a problem
with MesaGL support on my Voodoo Banshee-based card, and I plan to get a
Voodoo3 around Christmas. Thanks for the great info!
Alex Jones
"
"Mike,
I've written you before about my computer:
PowerTools Infinity 4200 (Tanzania MB; like StarMax 4000)
Newer Tech 300MHz/1MB L2 upgrade card
Voodoo3 2000 PCI
MacOS 8.6
I am also using a Farallon ethernet card. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it
is just their 10BaseT PCI EtherMac card. Haven't had any problems at all
with it (boy do I love my cable modem!). Unless there's something quirky
with Richard Murray's computer, his problem may stem from the Asante network
card.
Hope this is helpful,
Matt Cunningham
"
"Mike,
I've been using a Newer G3 300/200 L2B card in my 6500/250 for quite some
time now. I have not used any PCI ethernet cards but have had no problems
with comm slot II cards from both Sonic (10Base T) and more recently
Farallon (10/100Base T). The Farallon card is widely available (MacZone?)
and left open two PCI slots for my ATI Rage Pro VR card and an Entrega USB
card. Bus mastering must not be an issue for comm slot II cards. I just use
an external modem.
Steve Solomon
"
"I thought I'd chime in with my experience running bus mastering PCI
controllers in conjunction with a Newertech Maxpowr G3-L2 300Mhz/1MB card in
a Performa 6400/200.
I haven't had the slightest problem; I'm running an ATI Rage128 Orion with
both an Asante 10/100 Rev. B PCI Fast Ethernet adapter (with a cable modem
attached) as well as a Farallon 10/100 CommSlot II adapter which handles LAN
traffic via IP masquerade. I have the full compliment of 136MB RAM installed
running MacOS 9 with VM off. I've put a ton of bandwidth through both
adapters without a hiccup, plus the system is very smooth while playing
Quake II and Tomb Raider 3 at 800x600 resolution.
I'm very surprised that anyone would have a problem with bus mastering on a
similar setup; the system has been running 24/7 flawlessly (it's my gateway
to the home LAN).
Cheers,
Pete Plank"
Although as noted above, many Newer Tech L2G3 owners report no problems, this owner reports he has seen some PCI video card issues:
"Mike,
I am submitting my experience in response to your post on the news page
today, in hopes that this will shed some light on the very real problem that
exists with the L2 upgrades for 6500 type machines:
I have a 6500/300 PowerMac with 128MB RAM, Mac OS 8.6, Game Wizard Voodoo2
8MB card. I have installed a NewerTech L2/G3/300/200/1MB accelerator in the
machine and this is what I have discovered, other the past month working to
get the machine to work properly:
1. The machine will not run with virtual memory turned on unless the "ATI
Graphics Accelerator" extension is disabled. This is the extension that
provides 2D acceleration with the onboard ATI Rage II chip set. If this
extension is disabled, the machine is very stable. The downside is the slow
screen redraw for typical computing tasks.
2. If I want 2D acceleration, i.e., the ATI Graphics Accelerator extension
enabled, I must run the machine with virtual memory off.
3. If I remove the voodoo2 card from the machine, then it will run fine with
2D acceleration enabled and virtual memory on or off.
4. The problems described above exists with or without the voodoo extensions
loaded. Let me repeat, the voodoo extensions are not causing the conflict.
The problem has to do with the card being in the PCI slot.
5. In the course of my investigations, I also installed a voodoo1 card into
this machine and got similar results, regarding conflicts. However, there
was one difference that I found interesting. I was able to run with the
voodoo1 card and the ATI 2D acceleration enabled if I had the monitor
connected to the voodoo1 card and utilized the pass-through cable going from
the card to the video port (this is the normal way to connect a voodoo1 card
up to your system). However, I could not run with 2D acceleration enabled
and VM on if I had the voodoo1 card in the machine, but I had the monitor
connected directly to the video port. (The voodoo1 card was just sitting in
the PCI slot with nothing connected to it and no extensions for voodoo
loaded.)
6. I have verified that there is nothing wrong with the voodoo2 or voodoo1
cards and there is nothing wrong with the NewerTech accelerator (I tried
three different ones and got the same results with all three accelerators).
I have reformatted my hard drive, installed brand new system software (8.5
and 8.6), I have tried both HFS and HFS+ formatted hard drives, and I have
removed any non-standard extensions and control panels. My system is very
stock, other than the upgrades and additions mentioned here.
Taking all this together, with comments from others, it appears, at least
for some of the 6500 systems, the onbaord ATI Rage II is causing timing
problems with the PCI bus. Others who know more about the technical side of
things may be able to offer another explanation.
I think this is probably the issue with the voodoo3 cards and L2/G3 too.
Several posts on the 3dfx forum have stated that people got their voodoo3
cards to work when they disabled the ATI 2D acceleration extensions.
Thanks for your work. The site is my first visit every morning when surfing.
God bless,
Jeff Miles"
The below is an entry from my Rate Your CPU Upgrade database that noted a PCI Network card problem and a comment citing problems with any PCI busmastering card:
"Reviewer's Name: Richard Murray
Date Submitted: 12/3/99
Manufacturer: Newer Tech
Rated Speed (CPU/Cache MHz): 300/200
Cache Size: 1MB
Mac Type: 5400/120
Comments: Newer MAXpowr G3/L2 card works great as long as there are no cards in the PCI slot. Using it with an Asante 10/100 Fast Ethernet PCI card caused lockups every time. Call to Asante had them tell me, "The problem is the G3 upgrade requires the only bus-mastering allowed on the system and our card requires bus-mastering too." After looking at this for two months Newer told me that it doesn't look like they'll have a solution soon, if ever, but will refund me the price of the card.
"
Richard later replied he had the same problem with a Vimage G3 Upgrade and the Asante card, so it's not just a Newer Tech L2G3 problem in his system. I wonder if a Farallon NIC card would fare better. (Note - other owners are running Farallon cards fine and not all Asante card owners are experiencing problems based on reader email. Perhaps later drivers (NIC or Video) could help or perhaps this is some specific extensions mix issue.
[From the Jan 11. 2000 front page news] This 6500 owner noted disabling all ATI extensions improved his system stability:
"Mike,
This may not be as hot of a topic as it was a few weeks back, but I thought
I would give you an update on my experience.
My system is as follows: PowerMac 6500, 300Mhz 603e, 128 MB RAM, Mac OS 8.6,
NewerTech L2/G3/300/200/1MB accelerator, Matrox Mystique 220 video card,
GameWizard 8MB Voodoo2 card, Farallon Ethernet 10/100 comm slot II card,
latest drivers for everything. I recently added a ADSL modem to the mix too.
I reported before that there appears to be a problem/conflict with the
onboard ATI Rage II video on the 6500 system. This is definitely the case.
When I removed ALL ATI extensions from my system and installed the Matrox
video card, to replace the ATI video, ALL of my problems went away. In fact,
my system is more stable now than it has ever been. I have been running this
system for about a month now and it is as solid as a rock. (I have the 2D
drivers for the Matrox card installed, so I still get 2D hardware
acceleration too.)
(For those wondering: UMAX installed the Matrox Mystique 220 card into some
of their C600 Mac clones. SmallDog is selling a lot of UMAX surplus stuff
from their clone making days, including these Matrox video cards. So, I
picked one up for dirt cheap, and it turned out to work beautifully.)
Suggestion for other 6500 (and like systems) owners: disable the onboard ATI
video, by disabling ALL ATI extensions, and see if your problems go away.
Jeff
"
Jeff later wrote he bought the card when it was at their 'garage sale' for $19 and then added a 6MB Vram upgrade from Matrox (see their memory upgrades page) which lists for $19.99 as of today.
For ATI Rage128 owners there was an update to the 4.01 drivers some months ago specifically to address 'hang during boot' issues with many 603e based systems at their Mac drivers page. (The current ATI 4.2 universal installer may have that fix included however since the patch has been moved to their archives page.)
Until today I had never heard of a Mystique card for the Mac as Matrox only sold Millennium and Millennium II Mac models at retail. Apparently Matrox made an OEM deal with Umax for a 2MB Mystique 220 card version, which Small Dog lists for $49 currently. With only 2MB of VRAM, it would not be very useful for 3D (assuming it even supports at least RAVE). Also consider the fact there may be no software updates in the future. The Small Dog URL to Umax drivers has an error in it when I checked today, the correct link is http://www01.umax.com/supermac/download/#17.
The driver page notes support for OS 8 (8.x I assume, but may or may not work with OS 9).
Many (mostly Newer Tech) L2G3 upgrade owners reported having no problems with any PCI video card as mentioned on my L2G3 Feedback page back in December. Mixed reports over the last year however, especially from owners of other brands of L2 cache slot G3 upgrades. G3 control software updates may fix some of these issues so check the website of your cpu card brand for them. Search my Rate Your CPU Upgrade database for other owner reports for your mac model. (Check there often for updates since as a one man run site I can't read all of the mail I get every day, so I may have missed owner reports sent via email.)
Sonnet Technology Owner Reports:
This L2 cache slot G3 upgrade owner reported a workaround on his system for his ATI VR128 graphics card problems:
"Hello,
I have a PM 6500/275 with a Crescendo 400Mhz G3 upgrade running OS 8.5.1.
I've had problems with my Xclaim VR 128 card, it crashes when I play games
or have Xclaim Video Player running. I've tested a few things and it
doesn't look like it's a problem relating to my G3 upgrade at all, since it
still happens when the Crescendo extension isn't loaded...
But, in the ATI menu, if I just un-check "ATI Graphics Acceleration" it
never freezes and there is no loss of performance or features in 3D games,
just 2D acceleration is slow (scrolling, moving windows, etc,) but when I'm
not playing games or in Xclaim Video Player I turn graphics acceleration
back on again and it doesn't freeze (it hasn't so far).
I don't know if other people have this problem or if there's a fix to it,
or why it happens, but this seems like an acceptable workaround for me.
Clint Noble"
I've added this report to my VR128 Feedback page. I've not seen any crashing problems at all with the VR128 card installed in my G4/450 sawtooth system. I can resize the video player window, etc. with no problems and games seem to run fine.
This owner reported problems with a Villagetronic MP850 card (3dfx Banshee chip - same design as used with the IXMicro GameRocket card).
"Just a note for your site:
I recently upgraded my Performa 6400 to a G3 via the Sonnet Crescendo
300/1mb upgrade card. The speeds amazing, but there are problems!
Dont even think about getting an MP850 for your 6400/G3, it causes random
conflicts (Conflict catcher keeps telling me that system components
(appearance manager) are causing the problems, but when I hook up my old
Rage Pro everything runs fine... Disabling the VT extensions also works, but
then my computer slows down even more then without the card! I've never been
happy with this thing...
My machine now crashes even more then Windows95... It took me half an hour
to start a UT game the other day due to crashing...
If any one knows how to fix this please send me an E-mail at darken@home.com"
I asked if he had updated the MP850 ROM/drivers to the latest versions (new ROM and drivers were released last month by Villagetronic that improved performance).
"
I have a 6500/275 with a sonnet 400/1MB in my OS9 system running ATI
VR128. Since I've got the card, freezes occur very frequently (up to
every 10-15min at times), especially when surfing the web and using
netscape. Everytime I resized the ATI video player's window using menu
also freezes the system. The freezes i am talking about here require a
system reboot.
It was until i read about a tip at your site that disabling the "ati
graphics acceleration" from the menu will stop the freezes. IT worked.
But to have to disable 2D performace makes my system so slow that it
makes me want to switch back to my onboard video card. But it is
extremely annoying that i've waited months for the release of the card,
held back from buying a voodoo becos ATI wrote to me telling me it will
be compatible, spent almost 200 US dollars and ended up with bugy
perfomance and lousy support. I've called aTI tech support and they have
no clue what's going on. I've wrote to them twice and has gotten no
response from them. This is my 1st experience with a ATI card and it has
been a terrible one. I heard lotsa horror stories about ati support and
now I am finally seeing it for myself ....
And also, thanx for your fabulous site. its godsend
Yee-Wei
"
"Mike,
Saw the note re 6500 and ATI VR128 video acceleration and G3/L2 cards
from Clint Noble.
I recently received a Sonnet G3/L2 400/200 card for my 6500, which
runs an ATI RagePro 8Meg card in a dual monitor setup (as you may
know, the on-board RageII must at least think it is driving a monitor
or there will be unpredictable video operation - IOW, it must run in
dual monitor mode when there is present a PCI video card, even if
there is only one physical monitor hooked up).
After what is the most exhaustive troubleshooting I've ever done
(details on request - I have the luxury of 2 identical 6500s), I
tracked the problem down to the ATI accelerator extensions (either
the 2D or the 3D by itself would cause the problem). The problem
exists across 8.5.1, 8.6, and 9.0, and occurs with every possible
combination of ATI software, recommended or not (including the newest
4.2 univ installer versions, and the versions that come with 9.0, and
the versions that come with OpenGL 1.1.2).
The problem is random hard freezes in operation, even while doing
only finder operations. Turning off ATI graphic acceleration does
indeed eliminate the freezes. Unlike your correspondent though,
removing the Crescedo extension also eliminates the freezes. Of
course, I'm not interested in upgrading if I have to take 3 steps
forward and 2 back - it's not my idea of money well spent.
I even went out and bought the Voodoo3 200 PCI card, which BTW
installed and ran quite well. But the freezes remained as long as the
G3/L2 upgrade was in. This eliminates ATI as the direct culprit,
although an obscure interaction is not impossible.
Sonnet e-mail tech support quit writing back about it, and Sonnet
phone support was courteous and prompt but not the least bit
interested in any of my observations or conclusions (I quote: "Sir,
what do you hope to accomplish with your phone call?") - god knows
how anybody ever gives them detailed feedback for improvements or bug
fixes. After the short list of things to try, which had already been
covered by e-mail, they were more content to send me a new card,
which I am grateful for and will try. I can hope that mine was a
defective card, but my long years of troubleshooting Mac systems
tells me it is more subtle. It may be a bug in the Sonnet software,
but to be fair, it could be MacOS (although it crosses several
versions). Although my experience with Sonnet is below average at
this point, I will reserve judgement for now, as their reputation is
good.
It is a most disappointing result so far. I am open to corresponding
with anyone to try different new approaches, and will gladly share my
extensive results (I sincerely doubt anyone has tried as many things
as I have :-).
Stefan Jeglinski "
"Hi Mike,
Yes, I have tried this before [disabling ATI 2D accel. extension-Mike], and just like with Voodoo3, this will work
(although I must admit that I didn't test this combination for more than
hour). However, as expected, 2D will slow to a crawl. Also, I remember
reading some 6500 users with success with the Rage Orion and Voodoo2 in the
same system, which is the combination I had originally wanted to use. Also,
I have tried OpenGL 1.1.2 and 1.0, Sonnet Crescendo 1.3.7 and 1.4 (the
latest), and QuickDraw 3D 1.6 and 1.5.4 (I think it is this version; the one
just before the 1.6 with OpenGL installer), all to no avail. The ATI cards
will not work. Plus, if it will freeze even with the OS 8.6 base extension
set (the additional extensions I had put in this set is only the ATI's), and
have trashed all existing ATI drivers before installing the new ones. I have
even tried it without the V2 in my Mac, with V2 but extensions disabled, and
with V2 enabled (I know it runs only in 3D, but was just trying all
possibilities I can think of), all with no success.
Even tried PowerLogix's Cache Profiler to disable, manually, speculative addressing (had to use
ResEdit to change the Crescendo INIT to scri so as to load it before Cache
Profiler). This PCI bus news and the L2G3 incompatibilities is really
confusing me!!
Oh yeah, I will post my L2 G3 in the "Rate your CPU" [database-Mike] as you requested.
Thanks for all the info! : )
Regards,
Tiong Chen
PS If you like, I can forward all my e-mails to ATI tech support to you to
show you the horrible support they gave me! Seems to me like they didn't
even read my first e-mail to them but just the title. That's really bad,
especially considering how well 3dfx has supported us with their
'unsupport!'
"
Vimage Owner Reports: Vimage stopped selling CPU upgrades earlier in 1999.
"just wanted to say I run a Vimage 240 G3 with an Asanté 10/100 PCI and Ati
Xclaim (rage pro) with no problems on a 6400 clone (Umax C500/80MB/RD/8.6).
Pierre Poulin
"
This reader reports he's had sound problems
after the driver update (and required OpenGL update) that were only solved by reverting to the previous version:
"The Open GL 1.1.2 drivers (have to install 1.1 or higher to get the new ATI
Universal 4.2 Installer to work) seem to cause a sound problem with
multimedia. I'm getting choppy sound in SoundJam and Quicktime etc... Tried
running minimal extensions with the 1.1.2 Open GL drivers, but still had
choppy sound. If I change back to the Open GL 1.0 drivers everything seems
to work fine. I haven't found the OpenGL 1.1 drivers to test with the
Universal installer, but if/when I do I will drop another note about my
experience with them...
PowerMac 4400 Vimage G3 300mhz upgrade chip 64mb ram OS 8.6
I actually tried the Sound Catalyst install in both OS9 and OS8.6 to no avail
(it's supposed to be for 7200 machines, but I thought what the heck and tried
em anyway!!)... When playing an mp3 file with Quicktime 4.3 I get choppy sound -
quicktime movies seem unaffected and play fine. Here is a weird twist: while
playing that same mp3 file that sounds very choppy, if I click on any of the
drop-down menus on the top apple menu bar (File, Edit, View, etc) the equalizer
in QT stops moving and the sound is no longer choppy!! Same results with either
Open GL 1.1 or 1.1.2. The only thing that seems to work is dropping down to the
ATI Universal 4.1 update and Open GL 1.0.
JS"
As noted on my VR128 Feedback page, some past reports noted audio problems only after running the Video Player application.
"Hi Mike.
I thought I should leave a post here since this is right up my alley :)
I am running the Vimage 320Mhz card in my 6400 and I have a 10/100 COMM II
slot card from Farallon and they run great together. I also have a friend with
a 6400 and a Vimage G3 with Farallons 10BaseT PCI card and they work fine too.
It must be an Asante card issue? I have had other readers of my site with
Sonnets and Vimages G3's running Farallons cards with no issues.
Is there any way to tell if a PCI card is bus mastering without being able to
read the spec sheet in the box? This info might help other L2 G3 users stop
potential headaches :)
Tom
http://members.aol.com/zone6400
"
I welcome other feedback from L2 Cache Slot G3 Upgrade card owners - please list your Mac model, OS version, G3 card software version, PCI Cards installed (and driver revisions), etc. with your report.
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