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Lightwave 3D/OS X ATI driver IssueReturn to News Page

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Lightwave 3D problems with ATI OS X drivers?
Posted: 9/23/2003
Last updated: 10/2/2003 (for *driver update* from ATI)

ATI Driver Update Posted: Bruno of ATI sent an email today (10/2/2003) that the patch for the Lightwave 3D issues with some ATI graphics chips (noted earlier below) has been posted at http://www.ati.com/support/infobase/4267.html.

" LightWave may hang while rotating an object or using Modeler This information applies to the following configuration:
    (and 9000 Mobility in some PowerBook G4s per reports)
  • Mac OS X version 10.2.5 to 10.2.8
  • Newtek LightWave 7.5c

The system may hang while rotating an object or using Modeler in Lightwave. This issue does not occur in earlier versions of Mac OS X.

Users experiencing this issue are advised to download and install the ATI RADEON 8500/9000 HotFix for LightWave 3D.
Before you install this hotfix, please read the release notes.
If Mac OS X is updated to 10.2.6 or 10.2.8 afterwards, this hotfix will have to be reinstalled. "

The release notes mention that Alias' Maya may also be affected.
I welcome reports from those that were affected by this after applying the update. (Please include Mac model/graphics chip used, OS X version, etc. in reports. Thanks)

ATI Comments on Update to fix Lightwave3D/OS X Issue ATI wrote in reply to the OS X 10.2.5 and later driver issue with Lightwave 3D noted below:

" The specific problem was identified by our engineers and it affects RADEON 8500, RADEON 9000 and MOBILITY RADEON 9000. It has been fixed for both Mac OS X 10.2.6 and 10.2.8 release streams and is undergoing additional testing. This fix will make its way onto the ATI.COM web site as a "hotfix" - it will be a single component installation affecting only the above-mentioned chips. Only people affected by this specific problem need to download the update. Another news posting will come when the file is ready for the web. "

Interesting confirmation on the models affected - a reader said a new Alum. 15in Powerbook w/9600 Mobility was not affected by the bug.

(clip from the 9/23/2003 news page)
I haven't had time to repeat the tests he noted below (last night I did try rotating characters with LW 7.5c/10.2.6 without problems though with an ATI 9000 card installed) but wondering if any other ATI card owners with Lightwave 3D can test to see if they have a problem. (See later reader reports below for feedback confirming this problem)

" Hello Mike, Im from Australia and have been a longtime reader here. We Lightwavers are looking for a voice to help us. We noticed you guys use Lightwave in your Benchmarks and have a huge voice in the mac community. Lightwave since 10.2.5 has received a nasty Open GL bug that simply makes using lightwave (and maya now) UNUSABLE. It freezes the system ala os9 style needing a force restart. This happens when u rotate in the perspective view. (see below - I could not repeat the problem here with that simple a test-Mike) Apple says its ATI's fault, so does Newtek. (I wrote a contact at NewTek to get his comments on this)
Nvidia cards do not get this problem!
This has gone ignored and denied from ATI for 8 months now!
Many posts have been started about this problem, on apples support forums and Newteks.
The 10.2.8 update did nothing to fix this at all
. We cannot use FCP4 as it needs 10.2.5 or higher.
(I don't understand that comment but asked what OS X version is used and what Lightwave 3D version is used. Also asked if they had run repair permissions after any ATI driver updates - as mentioned before here (most recently on the 1.1 ATI driver installer for the 9800) it often shows a ton of corrections - literally every ATI driver file. May not matter but just a FYI.-Mike)
Ran repair permissions and etc from disk utility, about to run a fsck in sudo now.

What i was saying before is all us lightwavers are stuck in 10.2.4 because it doesnt crash BUT we cannot install FCP4 as it requires 10.2.5 or higher.
I just installed 10.2.8 and the problem with lightwave still is there. (using LW 7.5c he later said-Mike)

Some threads started:
(Apple forum thread)
(Newtech forum) (he later wrote)
THIS sequence WILL 100% crash lightwave (make sure you're not running anything unsaved)

  1. Open Modeler.
  2. Make sure viewports are set to the standard "Quad" setup.
  3. Set the shader for the "Top" viewport to "Wireframe Shade". And set the shader for the "Perspective" viewport to "Wireframe Shade".
  4. Make a Box, 1m x 1m x 1m, and centered on the Origin. (You can use the Numeric panel if you wish...)
  5. Drop the box tool (and don't select anything.)
  6. Now hit B (for bevel)
  7. In the "Top" viewport, use your mouse and (Bevel) Shift 2m (offset 0m)
  8. Now, right-drag and (Bevel) Shift 500mm (offset 0m)
  9. Now, right-drag and (Bevel) Shift 250mm (offset 0m)
  10. ...Shift 100mm (offset 0m) (just keep bevelling and it will crash)
    Adrian "

I'm too swamped to try this now but if any other ATI card/Lightwave 3D owners try the above let me know if you see a hard feeze or problem. Please include system/os/card/LW version details in reports - Thanks.

Reader Reports: (most recent first)

(added 9/24/2003)
" Mike, I've been having the same problem running lightwave modeler 7.5b, dual g4 450, 10.2.6 (now 10.2.8), radeon 8500, 1.5g ram. Modeler runs perfectly normal for awhile, then crashes. It seems to happen when switching layers or moving in a perspective window. The clock stops and I get a spinning cursor and no response. I have to push the restart button and reboot.

I haven't had any problems like this under any other circumstances. I didn't even think that OSX was capable of locking up like this. From what I've read on Newtek forum this only happens with 10.2.5 and above and ATI graphics cards. Apparently Nvidia cards are not affected.
I hope somebody fixes this before my dual g5 arrives. I'll feel pretty stupid having spent all that extra money on a radeon 9800 when an inexpensive Nvidia card would work much better with my favorite piece of software.
-joshua c. "

(added 9/24/2003)
" This is an extremely serious problem. We have had it since April and communicated it repeatedly to ATI and Apple.

Lightwave Modeler crashes from just a simple rotation in perspective mode in wireframe shaded view. Workflow is seriously hindered.

We have sent in our crash logs, ATI admits it is a FSAA problem with no solution as of yet. (running FSAA in Lightwave? I didn't think it supported FSAA in LW 3D, unless using the 9800 Pro retail cards 3D/GL overrides.-Mike)

Apple is forcing ATI cards on us with the new top end G5's. I believe it is politics and uneducated business decisions.
The Lightwave community is outraged!
Thanks for listening,
Teri T. "

(added 9/24/2003)
" Hi Mike, Love the site by the way - a daily reader on your site!
I thought I had to comment on the Lightwave issue as it's been going on far too long now. I have been (notice the past tense!) using Lightwave for months with this problem, and have literally given up on it as it does in fact render your system useless. - I love OS X, and love it's stability and love the fact that it's supposedly 'un-crashable'. - However, a 5-min bout of Lightwave - swivel a simple cube or something in the perspective window with shading on and CRASH BANG WALLOP! - HUGH OS 9 - Style freeze - TOTAL LOCK-OUT!! Nothing gets out of this problem - (believe me I've tried). Lightwave Updates, Driver Updates, OS X updates - nothing fixes it.
By all accounts ATI is the culprit -I'll say it again ATI IS THE CULPRIT!! - The OpenGL Drivers/Card compatibility needs to be fixed!!
So far (bearing in mind this is 8 months on since the problem originally surfaced) ATI has as far as 'acknowledged there is a problem', but are us Lightwave/ATI users going to have to wait another 8 months, before we can be able to use Lightwave again?

System Spec:
Dual G4 1.25Ghz, OS X 10.2.6, Radeon 9000, 640Mb RAM, Lightwave 7.5c
Ben N. "

(added 9/24/2003)
" Hi Mike, I have had this problem for months also!
PowerMac G4 dual 500 ATI 8500
and PowerBook G4 400mhz and 667mhz

The PowerBook G4 400mhz has the additional problem of broken GL windows which require a restart to fix. But this does not lock up the machine like the GL rotation problem.

Some other interactive tools also cause a system freeze (like Richard Brak's Rounder plugin ).

Sadly now Apples whole high end line features ATI cards including laptops. This is my biggest reason for for weak interest in the G5 or new laptops.
It would really be nice if someone would show a little more concern about this part of there market.
Thanks again for exposing this problem on you site!
Raven "

(added 9/24/2003)
" I am affected by this Bug as well. I am running an ATI Radeon 8500 AGP card with 1 gig of RAM on a G4 450. After upgrading to 10.2.5 and 10.2.6 I had to reinstall down to 10.2.4 because rotating in perspective view in modeler froze the system. This is very repeatable under 10.2.5 and up. High geometry doesn't seem to make a difference either. I've seen a freeze rotating a 6 poly cube. It seems that rotating fast can cause the crash as well.

After downgrading to 10.2.4 I do not experience this problem, and so will not upgrade again until I know it's fixed.
-Jason H.
Tumblemonster Productions "

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